Brian Welch [Korn]

On top of the world, Brian Welch was being listened to by millions of heavy music listeners which meant millions of dollars in the bank.  Fast-pace living, always on tour, but always high on meth.  

As a new dad, Brian wanted off his cycle and walked away from a $25 million record contract; but to get off the drugs, he would need a miracle.  

Joey and Brian talk a lot about “the rock star life,” both of their struggles with mental illness, contentment, and some theology in light of miracles and prayer.  Lastly, Brian’s cousin Scott Box wrote a book called “Heroic Disgrace,” a true story and reflections from a worship leader who struggles with bipolar disorder.  

This episode courtesy of Seacoast's Things You Won't Hear on Sunday Podcast.  

E-mail Joey here.

Support Joey's work by Being a Patron / (Venmo)

PWNA Theme Song by Stoy Prioleau (aka: Riggy Roc): Apple Music

Closing song by Derek Minor and other music by Mechanical River. 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:05

What's up, PWNA listeners? Some of you, my friends, my family. Hope your summer's going well. My kids went back to school today. August the 11th? That's a crime, man. My birthday is August 15th. Not one time did I go back to school before my birthday. Poor kids. Only two of them, my two boys. The other two girls are out of school. It's crazy. Golly. Wanted to give you an update here on PWNA before you check out this conversation I had with Brian Welch. What? But the PWNA team. All those familiar voices you've enjoyed listening to the past few years. We're getting together this Wednesday night to discuss the relaunch of this podcast. It's going to be the same types of conversations you've been accustomed to in PWNA land. And hopefully enjoyed a great deal, but it's going to be all new presentation, unique format, different title of the podcast. We're doing things differently. We're also adding a weekly video component. Can't wait for you to check out the goods. But the advantage of producing multiple podcasts with very little listenership overlap. So I got stuff let you guys hear that you probably haven't heard, including this conversation I did with infamous Brian Welch of the new metal band Corn. It's funny. I can probably identify one corn song. Just wasn't into the new metal scene after having this conversation with this sweet, sweet guy, obviously had to check out corn a little bit more extensively, and I I get it, man. I get the hype. This was a conversation we recorded a few years ago. He did the interview from his car. And like I said, man, a sweet dude. I hope you enjoy. I mean it when I say that just as a fellow believer and as someone who I really believe in the testimony of other saints and how that affects others. This was time well spent for me.

SPEAKER_04 2:12

Yeah, it was great to talk to you. I had a good time talking to you. Thank you for sharing some of your personal journey. It really helped me and made me think about stuff too. So God bless you all.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Just because I don't believe or agree doesn't mean I can't learn from you. Why did you have to bring that up? Okay, that one I'm super embarrassed about. Do you like me? Do I like you? As a as an individual or as a person. Okay, cool. And I don't have any interest in appearing to be stronger than I am. I ain't bowed a Nebuchadnezzar statue. He gon' lead. You feel me? How do we love people who see the world differently than we do? What would it look like if we truly loved all of our neighbors? Could listening to their stories be the first step? This is Seacoast Church, and there's way more to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

So we all right. Well, Brian, it is good to have you on here. It's it's I don't know how used you are to speaking to a wider age demographic, but we have a lot of people on here. Oh, I'd say 50, 60, maybe even 70 plus. How should we describe your music to them? I would just say maybe that that heavy stuff. Do you think that would the heavy, screamy stuff? Do you think that would click to that older demographic?

SPEAKER_04 3:33

Yeah. Uh loud, obnoxious, passionate, energetic. I mean, there's a lot of words you can use to describe corn, but uh yeah, for that age group, you know, maybe it's for a few of you, and maybe it's it's not maybe it's not for most of you, but so we we will have some metal heads listening.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

What would be some of the bands that had you not been listening to, corn would not exist?

SPEAKER_04 3:57

It's like I play this music and um it's my gifting, and I created this sound that you know hit with so many people, and and we just got off a tour five days ago with Evanescence and a co-headline, and there was a we averaged like 12,000 a night, and so it's still going strong, and but I just don't listen to it as much. I listen to kind of uh instrumental um atmospheric music. It really calms me and it focuses me. But definitely Metallica, maybe nine-inch nails, the red hot chili peppers, Alice and Alice and Chains. This will be surprising. Depeche Mode, Pantera, big mixture, you know? Um Dr. Dre, Ice Cube, Snoop Dogg, you know? So Cypress Hill.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

And you guys pioneered what would be considered now as new metal, right? I don't know if that's an uncomfortable question for you to answer, but didn't you guys pioneer that?

SPEAKER_04 4:52

That's what they say. There you go. You know, I would say all these bands that are still around today from that era have something very important. They contributed. Corn has a sound, Deftones has a sound that they contributed that is just amazing, still today. Evanescence, we just got off the road with Slipknot has their own sound. People will say what they say, but you know, I give props to all these bands, you know.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

So I really enjoyed last night kind of catching up on your story and what you went through and hearing from your daughter. Did I read correctly that you had an opportunity to sign a $23 million record deal? And that was around the time when God was working on your heart and you walked away from it. Did I read that correctly? Yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:33

Well, okay, I had you know a few million in the bank, I had all this stuff going on, but I was a drug addict, I was an absent father, I was in a broken home. My ex-wife, God rest her soul, she was struggling with a disease of addiction more than me, and so she was really in bad shape, and I was a rock star trying to be a dad and try to juggle this these two opposite worlds because I indulged in everything that I could the drugs, the drinking, the the sex, the strip clubs, everything. I indulged, and then I went home to this innocent little girl, and I'm trying to you know be a dad, and the two worlds collided, and and so I was just I didn't I did not know who I was or what I wanted to do. When I gave my life to Christ, I was like, okay, I can I can go back and I can stay in this world and go back on the road, or everything changes right now, and I'm not gonna chase the money or the fame anymore, and I'm gonna walk away, and everyone's gonna think I'm completely crazy, including probably close friends and possibly my family, because we had that twenty-three million dollar record deal on the table. But just to let you know a little background, that deal was basically signing we're saying give give us money for the next two records, like majorly two or four for the next, I don't know, four or five years.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

You're signing your life away almost. I mean, as far as your time.

SPEAKER_04 7:12

I was signing away my time with my child, and I wasn't gonna do it anymore. I I had a great time with corn. I had a I I was very grateful, but I didn't know who I was. I was a shell of a human being, and I needed something different. So it was a little hard to walk away from the money, but it it was kind of like thrilling too, because I found something that is worth being becoming a fool for, you know, and and not caring about anything other than God and my daughter at that moment.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

And you your your prayer of desperation, but it sounded as if you you had already made up in your mind what you needed to do, but you felt completely powerless against the the meth that you were addicted to. Your prayer of desperation. I mean, it gave me chills. It sounds as if God's answer to that was a friend that basically came up to you and said, Hey man, I just think that you need to hear this, and basically told you Matthew 11, 28, come to me, all you who are weary. And you were just telling God, I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

I'm I don't know if your exact words were I'm weary, but it was crazy because what that scripture said, and when he sent it to me, it was exactly where I was at in life. I am I have millions in the bank. I'm sitting there in front of my computer reading this scripture, and it's like Jesus is like, come to me, those who are wary and burdened. And I was so tired of life, I was so tired of myself, so tired of addiction. I was so tired of everything that was just robbing me of substance, and and I needed rest. I knew I was a constant worrier, and I was on meth, so like everything wrong you could think of is gonna go wrong when you're on meth. But to be at that point, you know, he just sent me, my broker sent me it, and he had never like reached out to minister to people before, so it was kind of like a stretch for him.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

New territory for him.

SPEAKER_04 9:19

He was like, Okay, is this guy gonna just ghost me after this, you know? And yeah, I mean, that one step of faith and not caring what what I might say back to him totally changed the the trajectory of my life and my family's life.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Well, and I think too, as uh as a fellow believer who I would assume just like any other Christian walks through seasons of stronger faith and then sometimes of just a little little doubt and a little scary, don't know, like hearing that kind of stuff is just really encouraging. I mean, I just that just sounds so unmistakably God. The the fact that your friend just does he doesn't do that kind of stuff. As I was listening to this, it sounded like what you articulated when you were having this transformation experience with God. It's almost like you immediately picked up on some very deep life lessons of contentment. Like you immediately picked up on stuff. I'm 45 years old, and I'm I feel like I'm near the end of figuring out some of these deeper contentment issues. And I was thinking about it, I was like, it makes sense because from a world perspective, you literally had it all. I mean, you literally could do whatever you want, basically with money, fame, all your dreams had come true. That's coming from the perspective of someone who at that moment has it all, knows that it's not fulfilling them, and it's it just seems like the walls came tumbling down for you in a way that maybe would not have been able to for someone who had not been in your shoes.

SPEAKER_04 10:50

I like how you articulate that, and I would agree with it. I did learn pretty quick about some things, you know. I had people come to me, m probably m three or more people that I trusted in that lived in different parts of the country or world, and they said God has you on a fast track, He has you on a quick process. But so things like contentment, yes, I learned that. I want that. Like I want contentment. I'm it I've been so depressed and anxiety and all these negative fruit in my life. I was like, I want this, and so I went after it with everything. Where I did lack it was emotional intelligence, and that didn't take that didn't change quickly. That took a while. Now I I did have contentment as far as like in mo in most ways or some ways, you know. But like my anger, just flying off the handle, rage a little bit, you know. So it was like this mixture of like contentment, being with God and not caring about the money and all that or the fame, but struggling with my with my own soul, like wanting a quicker healing. And uh honestly, it took about seven years to where you know, I was just I would talk to guys like you know that had miraculous life changes, and I had one too, and I'm not downplaying it, but I talked to some other people and they're like, Yeah, I just like the anger went away right when I met Jesus, and I'm like struggling with it for seven years. And on the eighth year, the beginning of the eighth year walking with Jesus, I just looked back to the prior two months and I'm like, I've really had a lot of peace and no crazy moments. Um, I must be due, you know, and it never came back. And usually healthy anger now is crazy, it just it just disappeared. That's an eight man. I started drinking at age like 14 and without my parents knowing it, I pretty much drank every single weekend all from that moment on. And I I would find like I had older friends that would always have the alcohol wherever we went, but it was crazy because I was a functioning drinker, and I would like I never got a DUI and I did drive drunk sometimes. I'm sorry to say, I did not want to get in trouble, I did not want to get my guitar taken away, I did not want to get arrested. So I would I was functioning and it was it's crazy. And most of my friends were too. It's like my dad said, if if you get Fs, your guitar's gone. If you get D's, you're gonna get in trouble, but if you pass, you'll be okay. I did the bare minimum to get to have my guitar not taken away. The addiction started that young. I didn't know how to hang out with friends without drinking because we never did. And and then into my twenties, you know, I I messed with weed growing up in my teens, I didn't like it. I tried cocaine, I think once in my teens, I did not like it. I tried meth in my early 20s, I did not like it. I I got involved with a girl and she was doing it, and so I kind of fell into it, and then I started to like it. That was it. Meth was just like it made you feel like a Marvel superhero at first when you did it, you know, and then it ruined everything about five hours later, and your week, your next week after you did a few lines is just like you're it's a wreck, you're just like so groggy and the whole it's uh it's like the come down, it's like you know, hangovers go away in hours or a day. The meth hangover would linger for days and days. But I was addicted to that what they call what they call it, chasing the dragon, you know? As soon as I start feeling clear again, I'd be like, boom, at the dealer's house getting meth. And so I was so like just addicted, and uh I was in a cage. It like it was my master, if you will.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

You're obviously you and I are both believers, and you're you're a a reasonable guy as as well. Would would you say that outside of God you you really did need supernatural intervention? Could you have done it on your own, basically? Is that your only hope?

SPEAKER_04 15:23

I mean, I could say possibly five years later, you know, maybe I would have possibly small chance of like gotten to like a really like gone away for a year, you know, in a rehab. That's like 10% chance, maybe, 90% chance. I feel like I was either gonna just kill myself because uh you gotta I want people to realize I was doing meth every day and I was doing Xanax every day. When you mix those up and down, up and down, up and down, you can easily overdose your heart. I've had a lot of friends that have died from from mixing, and I was suicidal at the time too. I just was I was so tired, man, of life, you know, having reached my dreams and being so miserable and addicted and not understanding why I was such a mess and not happy when I had achieved everything. And uh and one more thing, I tried to go to get help, and I tried to do it on my own twice. I I talked to people, I uh went to an outpatient rehab, I I tried to do it on my own, cold turkey, I tried to do it with the only thing that worked was church and going to hear about Christ. Actually, that he comes and lives inside of you with his spirit inside of your body. So I I pictured like, well, if this is true, this is the answer for everything that I've been looking for, because Christ will come in and he'll push everything out, like the addiction. That's that's what my mind was telling me. And then the other side of my mind was saying, or this could be a cult, and all these people are weird.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

A deeper theological question that you and I can't answer, obviously. I don't know if you would even see it this way, but I hear a story like yours a man in desperation calls out to God, and it just seems like the answer is completely undeniable that God intervened. I think about Paul on the road to Damascus. Paul even have a shot to resist God at that point? I mean, the man's blind. Why, Brian? Why did God answer you right away when I know for sure there's been tons of people in similar situations who have in some way, shape, or form said, God help me, there wasn't this miraculous. I I meet so many people who would love to not be in the in the shoes that they're in with addiction or whatever it is, and they just can't seem to get out, and they ask God.

SPEAKER_04 17:49

Yeah, I mean, it's it's hard to say. My mind goes in a few different places, you know. It's like I remember when God showed me he was real, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is real. He didn't just like take the addiction away, he he revealed himself to me, gave me the strength, but I had this like strong desire given by you know the Holy Spirit that I need to fight for my health now, and and I felt him like reveal to m to me inside that I have a strong calling to help others. And so it's like he was telling me what I was gonna be before I was off the drugs, you know? And so I'm like, oh my gosh, I need to fight for me and my especially my daughter. I it's like I had a whole new purpose. I'm gonna help others. I mean, the music, yeah, I'll do it through music or whatever, I don't know what it's gonna look like, but so I went through this like just fight where I was like, okay, those drugs, that alcohol, completely ruled my life since I was a young teenager, and I'm gonna fight it with everything I have, and I have everything now because Jesus is everything. Jesus is God and He lives inside of me, and I'm gonna fight through the temptations and I'm gonna get past this. And honestly, it's like when I felt God's presence, when you when you're open to the Holy Spirit and you surrender and you say, Okay, Lord, everything I've known in life, okay, I'm done. I want to start over. I want to start it over with you. Once you surrender that, and you're like, and then the Holy Spirit comes in and works. And when the Holy Spirit comes inside of you and and God reveals himself to you, in my experience, like I was instantly like drawn to that instead of the drugs. So I wanted that peace, I wanted that contentment, I wanted that the joy. I mean, you know, I feel like a lot of people that are addicted to substances, they're trying to escape this life and they want the joy, they want to get high and everything. And and when you come to God, it's like it's it's like the drugs and the alcohol and all that is is counterfeit. And when you come to God, his spirit will give you everything you were searching for and that stuff, he gives it to you with it himself. It's not constant, like I can't feel God's presence every time when I want to, but he gives you just enough to keep you on the quest to go after him.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Oh man, for sure. So there's been there's been times, yeah, there's been times recently. I I don't know if it's my age, but just tons and tons of questions and and kind of on a uh much more peaceful, restful uh place with it. But I remember there were times when it it almost felt like an instant split second of feeling completely overwhelmed by love and grace and acceptance and almost like a you're all right, Joey. And I there's there's nothing else that I could label that as God's presence just centering me in and saying, hey, you're okay. And then that that peace and joy that lasted for a couple of seconds didn't last any longer, but it was exactly what I needed to be assured that God was with me. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 21:04

There's there's nothing that could compare to it, right? There's nothing like it. You know, it happens to a lot of people, it happens to uh when they're going through something difficult, like you just said, and uh I and that happened to me too, and I was like, hey Lord, uh I don't want to wait until I have a bad day, and I'm having a great day. I want that, I want that like on my good days too, you know. It says, you know, there's a scripture that says you have not because you ask not. And I'm like, hey, uh Lord, I am uh an alcoholic, and if I because I tried to drink 10 years after I met Jesus, uh still alcoholic, I uh ended up in the bars getting wasted. But so I'm like, Lord, I I have that desire to be filled with alcohol when I drink too much. So uh would you do the opposite and fill me with your spirit so I can feel that presence more often than if I'm just in trouble or something, you know? And and I need you to strengthen me because I feel scared. Or whatnot, but and Paul says it. He said, Do not be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit. So it's like he compares the two almost, you know. And so that's my life, and that's let it be done to you according to your faith, Jesus says. And my faith wants that peace and that presence of God as much as I can get it.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

And it's a constant choice.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

Yep. It's like, and it and I struggle all the time because if you want to go to my phone settings and see how much screen time I'm using, you know, I choose other things besides that a lot too. And I'm not some like holy guru or nothing. I don't got it all down, but it is a choice.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

And so you could pass for one. You could pass for one. And people were watching right now, you could pass for one of your first town.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Hey guys, it's JT Price, and I'm the sound engineer for all these episodes. And check this out there was a lot of music talk edited out of that first conversation with the Mitchums, as well as in this talk with Brian Relch. Joey didn't even talk a bit longer about personal bouts with mental illness. We just couldn't fit it all in. If you'd like the full interview, completely unedited, join our Facebook group by clicking the link in the show notes. We'll have the full version available on that Facebook group by the time you're hearing this. Alright, back to Joey and Brian.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

Alright, well, let's talk about your cousin, man, Scott Box. I I was able to talk to him on another podcast that I do. What a guy. Him and I share a lot in common. A few years ago, I was pretty much incapacitated with a mental health crisis personally. And so both of us kind of in the ministry world, we just had tons to talk about. But I have to ask you kind of behind his back who could win in a fight.

SPEAKER_04 23:42

You know what? I may look like to some people that I could win, but Scott would crush me. Yeah. He's well, he's more athletic and he's like he's played a lot more sports, and I just feel like he could take me.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

Nobody could listen to corn and hear those that those guitar riffs and believe that if they're listening to corn at the same time, but we'll take you at your word. I mean, if we were hearing those guitar crunches, we'd be like, no way. Brian could take them. But so heroic disgrace, order out of chaos, hope out of fear. It's a worship hero story. And one of the big themes, so so Scott talks about his challenges with bipolar disorder. One thing that he's really driving home is to live out worship. I'd love just for our listeners to know about this work, not only sharing something that a lot of people are uncomfortable with sharing.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

I think of the scripture um offer your body as a living sacrifice, you know. And to me, that means just offer your whole life as an act of worship. And in his struggle, like he gave the whole mess to Jesus, you know, and he's like, I give you my pain, my bipolar, I give you my questions about why. Times it feels like you're not helping me. I give you all of it as an act of worship. Make something out of this complete painful mess, you know. That's the way I look at it. And when I think of that, when I think of him, and when I think of that statement.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

Do you have any struggles currently with with mental illness as far as anxiety or bipolar depression or anything like that?

SPEAKER_04 25:20

Yeah, mine's more of a like a it's weird. I'm I'm like, first, I'm an introvert, but on the complete other side, I'm an extrovert. I can switch into this role of extrovert and be this guy on stage who has 40 guests backstage and wants to serve them all, you know, makes all these people happy and and but I'll get social anxiety with that, and sometimes I'll burn out. I do have depression tries to get me sometimes. You know, I love how David says in the Old Testament he would talk about strengthening himself in the Lord. To me, it's like going to find that presence, like you were talking about when that peace came over you. It's like when I get in these depression states, um, and thank God they are happening less and less, you know, maybe once or twice a year. I can usually be fine, you know, if I just it usually comes on tour actually where just burnout occurs and always around people, lack of sleep, and it just hits me, you know. But um, I've been on Selexa, and that is a uh a medication that helps treat depression, and I have been on it for just maybe 10 years, weaning slowly off of it. I don't know if I'll completely stop it, but I've cut it in half, and um I've tried to stop before, and depression came back like a tidal wave, and I couldn't function, and it turned and it manifested in dark emotions and anger. I'm not going back there. I'll take a pill the rest of my life to avoid that.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

That's exactly my situation as I was on antidepressants probably since 1999, and I just felt like, okay, well, I I want to at least see how I would fare without medication and went completely off and learned the same thing. It's like it's taking medicine and not dying as opposed to getting off and potentially losing my life. I mean, I I it it almost cost me my life. I will take the fact that I I need medication to help me with the physical condition. I go back to Paul's thorn, and it's basically that I feel like that's my thorn, and that's something that I'm going to be bold about. It's it's my weakness. That's how God's strength is made perfect in my weakness. Have you made peace? It sounds like you've made peace with that as well, but what would you say to a Christian that says, Brian, come on, man, like Jesus died and rose for your healing. By his stripes, you're healed. You don't need all any of that medicine stuff. Don't go talk to therapists and everything. Jesus is your therapist, buddy.

SPEAKER_04 27:55

You know, they walk a day in my shoes, all right? That's what I would tell them. Like, people need to stay in their lane and they they try to help. Every good gift comes down from the Father of Lights, and medication has been a good gift for me because I might not be here. You might not be here. The people that don't understand need to understand that we have our own walk and our own journey. And there's there's kind of two sides to the medication thing for me right now, where where I sit right now, like I would go, like I said, the rest of my life taking medication if it if it keeps me leveled out. I'll take only a non-narcotic. I won't take, you know, I'm not taking any Xanax and any of that stuff anymore, unless I, you know, I've really had to for something.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

But um and is that to take care of yourself to to keep you from indulging, like that's just off-limits for you because you wouldn't want to abuse?

SPEAKER_04 28:45

Yeah, I just feel like I don't want to go that route because I want my conscious life to be clear, and that stuff will cloud. Um, if it's taken once in a while, there's no harm in that. If someone could take like a Valium or a Xanax like once a month because they have an anxiety attack, no, I'm not. I'm I'm talking about me and me only right now. On the other hand, I am weaning off of Selexa so slowly that my doctor told me not to do it that slow. He's like, you're just like, it's pointless. Like, and I go, Well, I've tried to get off it too fast. I'm not boasting because every time I think I'm gonna be like off, like something happens, and so, but this has been about a year going, and we'll see. But if I have to stay at 20 for till I'm 90 or in I'll do it, and there's no shame in it at all. But I was having side effects that I did not like, and so that's why I'm really trying, I trying this approach, and it's worked for me. And I'm like, I'm blown away. You got time for three more questions? Yeah, I'm having a good time, man, chatting with you.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

Sweet, me too, me too. Try to put on your pastor hat here. I love it's just uh the visual and hearing hearing your your daughter walk us through the situation in which you you knew what was best for her, and I don't know what you would call it, like a 24-7 therapeutic boarding school. You knew that dropping her off was going to break her heart and did break her heart, and yet you knew that was the best thing for her. It took me to a visual of the many times that God sees that in us, also. It's like you you you gotta go through this. I'm not going to take this away from you right now because it's what's gonna eventually set you free. People that are in the middle of depression or anxiety, I mean, to the point where they're needing to be hospitalized, it really feels absolutely hopeless. Like, and and honestly, there were times in my dark state where people trying to encourage me with uh talk about God didn't really do much at all. In fact, it it probably brought me down more because I just felt like so alienated from everything they were talking about.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

But like, how did you feel when someone is telling you, and how did you get past it? Can I ask you that?

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Yeah. So for me, I grew up in very fundamentalist religious upbringing. So uh my my whole life. I would go so far as to say I was not raised on a good expression of Christian faith. We we talked about grace and how loving God was, but then we lived in a way that God would smoke us in a heartbeat and would send us to hell if we cussed right before we died. I mean, it was just constant, constant fear. You were 14-year-old, you were a 14-year-old and drinking all the time. I was a 14-year-old and asking for forgiveness about everything, including not witnessing enough for lunch, you know, during lunch period. I mean, it was just that sort of heaviness, legalistic sort of uh approach to faith. And so when it's so it's so crazy because my brain got so sick. I dude, I was like 15 years removed from the ritualistic asking of salvation and the and the fear and all that. But when three years ago, when I got off my medication and my brain just got worse and worse and worse and worse, I reverted back to all of that. All of a sudden, anything about God felt scary. It was like all of these irrational fears of of hell and and just all of it came back full throttle. And, you know, we have a uh pastor here at Seacoast who he's he's basically on staff to watch out for our mental health uh because he's amazing, also. Yeah, and so he was trying to tell people, you know, and and I'm I'm really glad that he had my back on this, but he understood, he was like, Look, right now, God understands that Joey's mind is too sick to think of the spiritual stuff, and we he we can have faith for Joey right now, but there there really was no hearing anything anyone said about God because it all was scary. Oh because my my brain reverted back to all the the scary stuff. So for me, maybe uh makes people a little bit uneasy, but I couldn't engage in the beautiful things of the spiritual again until the tissue in my brain uh got better. Like my brain just wasn't healthy enough to process the beauty of God. That is and and God knew that that is so profound, man.

SPEAKER_04 33:21

That is so mind-blowing. I'll tell you what, I've seen some ugly, ugly religion out there, and I look at it like this like in this world that we're living, there's like two roads you can get, you can get stuck down going in rebellion, and like the stuff I did, and just the world, corruption, and you can get corrupted in the religious world and just annihilated. I've seen so many people with trauma, religious trauma, but in the middle is Christ, and Christ is a tree of life. It talks about in the in the book of Revelation that it's the it's the road of peace in the middle of these two extremes that you can get totally lost in. And man, I'm I'm so I'm so glad you made it out of that, man. And uh I I know of a minister who I think maybe a lot of people would know his name, and I heard about him going through they called it a dark night of the soul, you know. It's a it's uh this guy, uh St. John of the Cross, he was a Christian uh monk back in the day. He wrote a book called Dark Knight of the Soul, and it's just like where everything goes dark in your life, and you're walking through the shadow of death with with God, you know, and uh and so this this well-known name went to his son and said, Son, I am so sorry. I've led you wrong. I don't think God is real at all, and I want to apologize for teaching you the wrong path in life. And and his son's like, Dad, it's gonna be okay. And he walked through it with them, and so it could happen to even the big names, you know. And this guy went through something that you you just you uh mentioned, something similar to what you did. He couldn't, he couldn't even comprehend the goodness and that God is real, and he just went through this dark period, but he came out of it and he's back doing what he did before.

SPEAKER_03 35:28

So for people who actually have a hard time with that, I mean, it's as easy as look, the brain is is the centerpiece of all of our reasoning, all of our thought processes. I mean, it's how we think about God, it's how we pray, it's how I mean, God forbid we admit it's how we interact with the spiritual realm. It it should make sense to all of us when that thing is broken, it affects everything, like absolutely everything.

SPEAKER_04 35:58

Why do people have so many opinions? You know?

SPEAKER_03 36:00

Why can't I I love your approach to this? It's almost like everybody's on a journey, mind your own business.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

Man, I'm saying like it's this Christians are so some of them are so like high up and they think they have all the answers, and it's like, man, I don't know. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

I just get a little frustrated with people sometimes, but well, that's all right because I was gonna ask you if Jesus came back for like a 1.5 visit. So between the first and and second return, what would his sermon be? I think you just told me.

SPEAKER_04 36:31

Okay. This is what I think he would say. He would his sermon would be a sermon, a five-minute sermon about unity in the body. And I think his first few words would be like, you know, before I went to the cross, I spoke about the main thing I spoke about that everybody would be one and a unity. And what have you guys done with 50,000 denominations? And I was online last night. I watched uh uh these two guys, these two Christians, they were going at it with each other on theology and character and this and that, and like you, you, you had adulterous affairs and you like all this stuff, and I'm like, this is so embarrassing. This is like two children, and they're given platforms on you, they have YouTube channels, and I'm just like, and you know, many others that it's like their ministry is to go and and talk about the successful preachers out there and like call out every wrong thing they've said, and it's so annoying. But I gotta remember everyone's in a process, everyone's looking for a purpose, and so I try not to judge them too much. And I know like both of these guys and other YouTubers have a lot of good things to say as well, and you know what? I guess that's why Jesus said forgive 70 times seven per day or whatever, because everybody every one of us are so jacked up, you know. And the last thing I'll say is there's a scripture, I forgot it's in Corinthians somewhere, one of the Corinthians, Paul basically says, make sure to forgive so that Satan doesn't outwit us and doesn't fool us or trick us. So the no like to me it meant like the number one thing is unforgiveness. I try to for I know I sound harsh sometimes against the body of uh against annoying believers, but you know, I'm in my heart of hearts, like I just I love everybody and I know that's Jesus' bride, and I forgive them. And I just hope for maturity that maturity grows, you know.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

And and when we're all getting to heaven, we'll forget about all this stuff. It would be so unbelievable when all that stuff just goes away and we're all like, oh yeah, we're all just regular people that were just doing the best we could. Now we're can you believe it?

SPEAKER_04 38:48

Like, maybe, maybe no more tears. Oh uh that's in the Bible. No more tears, no more pain, no more division, no more toilets, no more whatever that we don't like here. I cannot wait.

SPEAKER_03 39:02

Oh, it's gonna be great. It's gonna be great. There's gonna be corn concerts, and you guys are gonna be I mean, it's gonna be great. Sandy Patty will open up for you guys.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

I did have a book release about five years ago, and I was on the TV sitting next to Pat Robertson, me and Pat Robertson talking about my book and talking about Jesus. It was crazy.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

700 Clubs. I I mean it when I say that just as a as a fellow believer and as someone who I really believe in the testimony of other saints and how that affects others personally. This was time well spent for me.

SPEAKER_04 39:40

Yeah, it was great to talk to you. I had a good time talking to you. And thank you for sharing some of your personal journey. It really helped me and made me think about stuff too. So God bless you all.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Thanks for listening. There's a link in the show notes to our podcast Facebook page where we'll have a completely unedited version of this episode. We'll also have behind the scenes information. I guess we're booking. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.